The Biggest Secret

[shabda]

I just picked up a copy of david Icke's "the biggest secret" WOW!
What a great score! Oddly enough when I aked for a copy of behold a pale horse by milton william cooper they had to get my info for "special order" They sure are interested in seeing who is buying that book eh? Anyways the biggest secret is a great read. If you are dependent on your belief system, or if you feel you cannot cope emotionally with what is really happening in this world THIS BOOK IS NOT FOR YOU!!!

"...Life is forever and everthing is just an experience on the road to enlightenment. Viewed from the highest level of perception, there is no good and evil, only consciousness making choices to experience all there is to experience. The astonishing events which this book exposes are in the process of coming to an end as the light of freedom dawns at last on the biggest transformation of consciousness this planet has seen in 26,000 years. It is, despite some of the information you are about to read, a wonderful time to be alive." David Icke (The Biggest Secret)

Big Up the light n sound massive!!!

[Preecha]

So what is really happening in this world?

[shabda]

"The New Testement, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnis Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testement and all the characters in it- Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist- all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters: they tied the story to a specific time and place in history: and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictional!) characters." Abelard
Reuchlin, The True Authorship Of The New Testement 1979

Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!
Ancient Rome is not so ancient. Did they every really fall from power?

[Dub-U-Eff]

Originally posted by shabda
"The New Testement, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnis Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testement and all the characters in it- Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist- all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters: they tied the story to a specific time and place in history: and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictional!) characters." Abelard
Reuchlin, The True Authorship Of The New Testement 1979

Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!
Ancient Rome is not so ancient. Did they every really fall from power? muuuaaaahhhahahahahahahahhhahaaaa

[Preecha]

So you read a book that told you that? Impressive...

Keep praising the gods of light and sound.

[NextLevel]

So you read a book that told you that? Impressive...

to be fair, you could say the same about the bible:holy shit

not tryin to start shit or judge, but just wanted to point out.

[IonSant]

Originally posted by shabda
"The New Testement, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnis Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testement and all the characters in it- Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist- all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters: they tied the story to a specific time and place in history: and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictional!) characters." Abelard
Reuchlin, The True Authorship Of The New Testement 1979

Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!
Ancient Rome is not so ancient. Did they every really fall from power?

Q: do you buy that? ^^^

[Preecha]

If you want to debate the historicity of the Bible I can. If you dont know about simple things such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, then its pointless to continue. If you want to say that the Romans have skewed and misrepresented the history of the first few centries then we will have to dig alil deeper. If you want to talk actions instead of words that would be more impressive. Basically what does your "g"od call you to do in this needed world? Does he work in your life?

Do you even give a damn about any of this or is ignorance(porn/music/beer) bliss?

[NextLevel]

HISTORICITY???? WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?

:holy shit

[NICKELTHROWER]

Yes, I can discuss the bible. I know that it is a book of lies and anyone with half a brain should realize it also. Do you have an OPINION? Opinions are based on FACT. We can discuss your Opinions. If you want to rant about your BELIEFS then we are out of luck because Beliefs are not based on FACTS.

Let us have some fun and look at some simple FACTS. Jesus lived in what today is modern day Israel. At that time that area was under Roman occupation. The Jews, of course, did not find the occupation enjoyable nor did they ever accept the Roman's polytheism or Emperor Worship. At that time, coins in circulation bore Augustus' likeness and the words, "Augustus, Son of God."

See, Augustus claimed that he was the Son of God. Furthermore, this Roman Emperor also claimed that he was the product of a VIRGIN BIRTH. Atia, his mother, fell asleep in the temple of Isis and Augustus was the product of a Virgin conception that took place in this temple.

This is not a belief, this is a fact. We can look at old Roman coins and read this inscription. We can look at ORIGINAL Roman documents and read the account of the "Virgin" birth.


Jesus, a know follower of the Essenes, was an anti-Roman revolutionary. His claim to be the Son of God and the Virgin birth are clear jabs at the Roman invaders. You can not separate the TIMES from the MAN. Clearly, the times show that Jesus was a man. Simple - end of story.

If you like, I can name many, many more incidents just like the one above. I guess though, that you have a closed mind and you will preach your BELIEFS because, after all, that is all you Christians have.

Good Luck
:raging

[Preecha]

Historicity is a term used to relate the difference between historical fact and historical fiction. To debate the histoicity of the Bible is to divulge the historical facts from the supposed fiction, I would tend to beleive. So...


Jesus never claimed to be of the Essenes sect of Judiasim (the others being Pharisees and Sadducees). The similarities between Jesus and his followers to the Essenes are many but a confident conclusion based upon this specualation would be folly. Jesus and none of his disciples, in any works I know of, claim to be of this sect. If you can show me those works I would appreciate it, but doubt that Biblical evidence will be procured.

Secondly, Jesus was NOT a known anti-Roman revolutionary. If you have studied the Gospels, as I have, you would understand this topic as it relates to his "Messiah" title. Jesus NEVER claimed in public to be the long awaited Messiah, which he was. He specifically told his disciples NOT to call him him this as the Jewish onlookers would then look to Jesus as their long awaited "politcal king", which he was not. Among the Jewish expectations of the "Messiah" were his comming kingdom, which many thought was going to result in the immediate destruction of the Roman authorites in the area(and prehaps the world). The Jews, at the time of Jesus, were awaiting the "Messiah". The Messiah in many of their eyes was comming to set up his literal earthly kingdom. This is a huge mistake on the part of the Jews.

In the end Jesus cautioned his disciples on calling him this specific title because of it would disrupt his 3 year ministry and cause a early advance of the Roman authorities on his journey. If they openly claimed him King of this world, the Romans have no other option then to arrest him immediately. There was 2 main ways of going against imperial Roman rule and getting the death penality for sure:
1-Claim to be a king in Roman lands (as there was but one king and emperor)
2-Revolt (as the Zealots revolved later in the 1st century and caused the second destruction of the temple in Jerusalum and the scattering of the Jews from Palestine).

Blessings...

[Preecha]

BTW those are the historical facts, based upon the text that we have at hand. Not my beleifs!

[Preecha]

Lastly,

If you want to be a man dont make up a new username and think I dont know who this is. I have access to your ips and know its NextLevel. Try again...

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda
"The New Testement, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnis Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testement and all the characters in it- Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist- all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters: they tied the story to a specific time and place in history: and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictional!) characters." Abelard
Reuchlin, The True Authorship Of The New Testement 1979

Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!
Ancient Rome is not so ancient. Did they every really fall from power?

Wow! That is completely inaccurate! I find even more amusing that you've read ONE book and have come to a conclusion so quickly.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NextLevel
HISTORICITY???? WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?

:holy shit

Historical authenticity; fact. - Dictionary.com

Ooops...maybe you should delete that post.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NICKELTHROWER


If you like, I can name many, many more incidents just like the one above. I guess though, that you have a closed mind and you will preach your BELIEFS because, after all, that is all you Christians have.

Good Luck
:raging

Please do. Because so far you haven't PROVED anything. You've recited information and provided no evidence. No sources. No place where an openminded individual could actually find out the facts for themselves.

And before you start spouting off like a closeminded, nazi full of bigotry, realize that each 'Christian' is an individual with their OWN beliefs.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by Preecha
Lastly,

If you want to be a man dont make up a new username and think I dont know who this is. I have access to your ips and know its NextLevel. Try again...

Hahahahahahahahahahahaa.

[Dub-U-Eff]

Originally posted by Preecha
Lastly,

If you want to be a man dont make up a new username and think I dont know who this is. I have access to your ips and know its NextLevel. Try again... Not stirring, but, there are 4 other people that live in NextLevel's house and use the same IP...

[Polytrickster]

I've said it before, and I'll say it agian. Most misunderstandings about the Bible come from IGNORANCE. Not knowing the facts. Which facts?

Well to start off with, how secular society determines historical authenticity and what that means about the Bible.

An all to common arguement is that the Bible has been corrupted thru the years. Or that the Romans invented Christianity. (BTW there is a difference between CATHOLISISM and Christianity)

If you HONESTLY want to know the FACTS about the Book's historical authenticity, or the FACTS about Christianity, don't just turn on the TV, or go to church and listen to some 'authority' on the Bible, read it for yourself. The whole thing. Then do your research. Especially before posting questions about a common english word whose definition is readily availible. It just makes you look like an idiot to Christians and non-Christian alike.

Peace.

[Dub-U-Eff]

Sorry to stray from the subject but, Polytricksta, where'd you get that sig from? I assume it's you....That shit's funny as shit.

[NextLevel]

hey man.... I am on a network here. There are six computers here. Thats not me bruva. Sorry.:slayer

[NextLevel]

BTW... yes it is a word...but to say it is common..????

[NextLevel]

sorry for questioning your vocab..... that may have to be
"THE WORD OF THE DAY!":D

[Dub-U-Eff]

Originally posted by NextLevel
sorry for questioning your vocab..... that may have to be
"THE WORD OF THE DAY!":D na, na, na....es "cadywhompus"

[Flagrant]

WOW.... there are some pretty anal people on this board. :eek

[NICKELTHROWER]

/

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by Dub-U-Eff
Sorry to stray from the subject but, Polytricksta, where'd you get that sig from? I assume it's you....That shit's funny as shit.

Dat is me dood! :D :slayer

But I have to give props to NextLevel's sig....that shit is classic!

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NextLevel
sorry for questioning your vocab..... that may have to be
"THE WORD OF THE DAY!":D

It's common for those who choose to speak about the historical accuracy of things. :P

I'm just saying if you are going to challenge someone on a topic, besure your knowledgeble, just to save a little face. Otherwise, knock yourself out. I don't mind making you look like a fool. :D

and actually the word of the day on my.yahoo.com is:

Garrulous
DEFINITION: very talkative
EXAMPLE: The garrulous parakeet distracted its owner with its continuous talking.
SYNONYMS: loquacious, voluble, verbose, chatty, prolix

[IonSant]

Originally posted by Flagrant
WOW.... there are some pretty anal people on this board. :eek


omFg did u just say the "A" word---please remove ^^^
your post at once! :mad

[evilAntics]

I cant stand it when people have to push things on other people such as religion. Thats nice you beleive in whatever you want or that you are really educated on the matter. Fine. Just dont try to constantly push your beleifs onto others. I dont know how many times ive had to read about god or what not on here, its really annoying. Keep to yourself about it, or discuss it with your bible study group or some shit. Nobody CARES!!

This place is suppose to be about dnb, and about 20% of the posts on here are about the music, the rest is just filler about stupid shit.
What does dnb have to do with god?? Im sure youve got some connection right.

[Dub-U-Eff]

There's only so much you can say about DnB, though...

[NextLevel]

I think these discussions are great! They just need not get personal or be taken to heart!:D

[NICKELTHROWER]

Greetings,

Had you really read the Dead Sea Scrolls you would clearly recognize that Jesus was an Essene. The teachings and parables that are so often attributed to Jesus are actually Essene teachings that predate Jesus by many years. Jesus didn’t need to announce his affiliation with the Essenes for it would have been common knowledge. After all, Little Richard doesn’t need to announce that he is Black.

Furthermore, Jesus clearly preaches an anti-Roman message. I find it interesting that Jesus demand his followers to acquire weapons even if they must sell the clothes off their backs. Think about the arrest of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. “And when they that were about him saw what would follow, they said, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? But behold Simon Peter a certain one of them that stood by that were with Jesus therefore having a sword stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck…” The apostles attempt to use their weapons to defend Jesus. Question?? Why were the apostles armed? Weapons were generally controlled by the state and the ownership of a sword in the time of Jesus would be the equivalent of me owning a .50 machine gun.

Also, why would Judas have to identify Jesus for the Soldiers and the Priests? Jesus had made himself known by his teachings but it would appear, and many agree, that Jesus was probably in disguise on the evening of his arrest. This, his jabs at the Emperor (Jesus claims to be the son of god – the virgin birth), the weapons, the disguise, and the fact that Jesus was teaching Essene philosophy clearly suggests that Jesus was nothing more than one of many anti-Roman zealots. Nothing more, the rest is lies.

[NextLevel]

oh Jesus!! (no pun intended) He is stirrin the shit now..... I'm gonna stay outta this one:holy shit

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by evilAntics
I cant stand it when people have to push things on other people such as religion. Thats nice you beleive in whatever you want or that you are really educated on the matter. Fine. Just dont try to constantly push your beleifs onto others. I dont know how many times ive had to read about god or what not on here, its really annoying. Keep to yourself about it, or discuss it with your bible study group or some shit. Nobody CARES!!

This place is suppose to be about dnb, and about 20% of the posts on here are about the music, the rest is just filler about stupid shit.
What does dnb have to do with god?? Im sure youve got some connection right.

What's so incredably amusing is that I have never ONCE pushed my beliefs on to anyone. Nor have I identified to you exactly what MY beliefs are. In fact, the thread was started by someone "pushing" their anti-Christian beliefs on others. (By pushing, of course, I mean posting information in a forum where people have to CHOOSE to read what is posted.)

Does finding out your a hypocrite who's intolerant of others and their beliefs anger you? Aww, poor baby....if you don't like the topic, don't participate. And if YOU don't care....don't reply, because it just makes it seem like you really do.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NICKELTHROWER
Greetings,

Had you really read the Dead Sea Scrolls you would clearly recognize that Jesus was an Essene. The teachings and parables that are so often attributed to Jesus are actually Essene teachings that predate Jesus by many years. Jesus didn’t need to announce his affiliation with the Essenes for it would have been common knowledge. After all, Little Richard doesn’t need to announce that he is Black.

Furthermore, Jesus clearly preaches an anti-Roman message. I find it interesting that Jesus demand his followers to acquire weapons even if they must sell the clothes off their backs. Think about the arrest of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. “And when they that were about him saw what would follow, they said, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? But behold Simon Peter a certain one of them that stood by that were with Jesus therefore having a sword stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck…” The apostles attempt to use their weapons to defend Jesus. Question?? Why were the apostles armed? Weapons were generally controlled by the state and the ownership of a sword in the time of Jesus would be the equivalent of me owning a .50 machine gun.

Also, why would Judas have to identify Jesus for the Soldiers and the Priests? Jesus had made himself known by his teachings but it would appear, and many agree, that Jesus was probably in disguise on the evening of his arrest. This, his jabs at the Emperor (Jesus claims to be the son of god – the virgin birth), the weapons, the disguise, and the fact that Jesus was teaching Essene philosophy clearly suggests that Jesus was nothing more than one of many anti-Roman zealots. Nothing more, the rest is lies.

Where are you getting your information? Are you coming to these conclusions on your own? Did you read them in a book? Are you asking these questions to discredit what secular scholars, over a thousand years, have already determined as fact? What are you getting at? What is your goal? Is it to piss people off? Present intriging new ideas to a philosophical discussion? Belittle other people's beliefs to justify your own way of life? Change people's minds about their beliefs? Or to simply spout off your opinion in a somewhat offensive and inappropriate way?

Just trying to understand what part you are trying to play in this discussion....

[NICKELTHROWER]

Where are you getting your information? Are you coming to these conclusions on your own? Did you read them in a book? Are you asking these questions to discredit what secular scholars, over a thousand years, have already determined as fact? What are you getting at? What is your goal? Is it to piss people off? Present intriging new ideas to a philosophical discussion? Belittle other people's beliefs to justify your own way of life? Change people's minds about their beliefs? Or to simply spout off your opinion in a somewhat offensive and inappropriate way?

Gee, I didn't know I was required to give my resume.

I am a former history and government teacher with a degree in psychology, social studies and liberal arts. I’ve studied abroad with travels through more than 21 different countries – usually on a bicycle. Understanding cultures and their history is something I am still passionate about. Finally, I am sorry if you took my post to be an aggressive one but I am so sick of people trying to preach religion to me when their beliefs are nothing more than an accident of birth.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NICKELTHROWER


Gee, I didn't know I was required to give my resume.

I am a former history and government teacher with a degree in psychology, social studies and liberal arts. I’ve studied abroad with travels through more than 21 different countries – usually on a bicycle. Understanding cultures and their history is something I am still passionate about. Finally, I am sorry if you took my post to be an aggressive one but I am so sick of people trying to preach religion to me when their beliefs are nothing more than an accident of birth.

Who's "preaching"? Beliefs don't equal religion.

And again, even more amusing... you signed on to a public message board, found the Politics forum, read a few posts concerning someone's personal beliefs in *response to* attacks on that persons way of life, and the Christians are the ones preaching?

Gimmie a break. You even created an account SPECIFICALLY to "preach" (by preach, of course, I mean posting information in a forum where people have to CHOOSE to read what is posted) your distaste and INTOLERANCE of another people's beliefs.

As for your resume....you didn't answer one of the questions. And from the looks of things, selective reality is where you'd like to stay. It must feel wonderful living in a world you've created.

<smart-ass remark>And I'm sorry if you took my post as an offended one but I am so sick of people being INTOLERANT</smart-ass remark>

[NextLevel]

Look... you both are obviously intelligent people:up Who cares if everyones beleifs are different. I think that generally speaking both sides of the issue are kinda trigger happy. (not on this board but generally in this country) Faith is faith! You cant prove it to someone else, and you cant really disprove it. Therefore... believing that there is no god is essentially faith as well. :slayer

[Mantis Claw]

Awe shut up you FUCKING HIPPIE! :laughing (I'm talking bout that fucking hippie Jeremy)

[NextLevel]

Hippies smell:down :D

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by Mantis Claw
Awe shut up you FUCKING HIPPIE! :laughing (I'm talking bout that fucking hippie Jeremy)

:laughing :slayer

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NextLevel
Hippies smell:down :D

In those days I actually bathed 2-3 times daily. :eek

[Preecha]

Originally posted by NICKELTHROWER
Greetings,

"Had you really read the Dead Sea Scrolls you would clearly recognize that Jesus was an Essene. The teachings and parables that are so often attributed to Jesus are actually Essene teachings that predate Jesus by many years. Jesus didn’t need to announce his affiliation with the Essenes for it would have been common knowledge. After all, Little Richard doesn’t need to announce that he is Black."

-How is this common knowledge? I know of no Christian teacher that I speak to that has ever eluded to this "unreliable conclusion". If he was an Essene why didn't he and his followers mention it. Even if he did study their ways why would that matter much anyways? In the end this is NOT common knowledge that you claim.

"Furthermore, Jesus clearly preaches an anti-Roman message. I find it interesting that Jesus demand his followers to acquire weapons even if they must sell the clothes off their backs. Think about the arrest of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. “And when they that were about him saw what would follow, they said, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? But behold Simon Peter a certain one of them that stood by that were with Jesus therefore having a sword stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck…” The apostles attempt to use their weapons to defend Jesus. Question?? Why were the apostles armed? Weapons were generally controlled by the state and the ownership of a sword in the time of Jesus would be the equivalent of me owning a .50 machine gun."

-Jesus was of course anti-Roman. They enslaved the Jews, but again their part in history was for a specific purpose and God used the Roman Government to serve his purpose. To apply his wrath on the Herbrew nation and to scatter the peoples across the world.
On to the next point. The apostles did many things Jesus condemed. The use of the sword here was just one of many. Jesus didn't want Peter to attack the solider. He did and was rebuked. Want to know why Peter had a sword? He KNEW the Lords life was in danger and wanted to do what was needed to protect him. At this point the Apostles knew Jesus was going to be taken in by the authorities and in haste did foolish things. Jesus was prepared for his final days, but alas the 11 we're not.

"Also, why would Judas have to identify Jesus for the Soldiers and the Priests? Jesus had made himself known by his teachings but it would appear, and many agree, that Jesus was probably in disguise on the evening of his arrest. This, his jabs at the Emperor (Jesus claims to be the son of god – the virgin birth), the weapons, the disguise, and the fact that Jesus was teaching Essene philosophy clearly suggests that Jesus was nothing more than one of many anti-Roman zealots. Nothing more, the rest is lies.

-What disguise??? What books are you reading leading you to these baseless conclusions? Jesus probably looked like any other, normal, Hebrew man. He was with 11 other, similarly dressed, Hebrew men. Judas had to let them know who Jesus was. Jesus didn't need a disguise to hide lol. In another instance guards went looking for him and Jesus "vanished" out of harms way. But now was the time for God's will to be done. Death was immenient. Jesus didn't need to hide at this point because the point was to be FOUND!
You keep mentioning this similarity between the Emperor and his claims in light of Jesus claims. I have studied, with just alittle dedication, the claims of other cults and the similarites between the birth/death and ressurection. Jesus claims at this storyline are UNIQUE at his time. Others have had some similarites but the full story is, again, unique to this Jewish man. Many cults after Jesus time especially in the 2nd-4th centuries copied this birth/death/res story.

So if you take this instance where Jesus's sinful disciple Peter tried, in vain, to save his master and this totally baseless idea that Jesus was wearing a disguise and then pair them together with the notion that Jesus was copying the Emperor's claim to divinity or what not, you have nothing more then speculation. In the end if Jesus was this big anit-revolutionary WHERE IS THIS MESSAGE OF WAR WITH ROME? Is it buried in his OBVIOUS words of peace and true love? I think not. Re-read the books you attack for alittle more info on the subject and not 21st century novels (if thats where your info comes from). This history of Jesus Christ has had more "POSITIVE" influence then any other man in history. It has a certain magic to it that's not in your current theatre. It's an epic that we all live and participate in, knowingly and otherwise.

I still find it hard to beleive that people would rather attack a story of human redemption, in a world where no lasting love is to be found, then to accept the consequenses of their actions in this realm. All men are held accountable. Im sorry to tell anyone this. I am going to be held more accountable then most and I deal with it. Time to acquire perfection, not in this world though we must strive, but in the next. This isn't LOTR or any other make beleive story, those films only elude to the last days in my eyes. This story is it! Look at the world it's helped create and im not talking about the supposed Christians who have done harm. Christian love has done great good but remember that the history books mainly tell of the evil and the wars that people caused. Good things almost always go unoticed, even in the books that form our knowledge of ourselves.

Blessings...

[Preecha]

In the end true love is something intangable and something I have faith in. It moves me to action. Nothing more does. Really...

[NextLevel]

Look.... arguing against Jesus is dumb since it cant be proven. You cant prove a negative! On the other hand, arguing for Jesus is equally stupid since the ONLY thing that PROVES who he was is the Bible. You cant use something to explain itself! Also..you wont find any "historical" proof of Jesus being the son of god from anyone who is not a devout Christian. Therefore they can NOT be considered a reliable source! Basically it is silly to argue what you beleive. Do whatever it takes to live your life in what you truly beleive is the best, most honest, kindest way no matter where your ideals and morals come from(and go to lucky dragon tonight).:spliff

:D

[Preecha]

I try to never "argue" the point that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It speaks for itself. I only learn to convey the message. Those who want the love, will accept it, those who dont...

Rationality doesn't really fit in where faith is concerned. Everyday of everyone's lives they live on a direction of their faith. Some wont admit it but its the truth. I seem to place my faith on 66 books/30+ authors/"numerous" prophecies/the conversion of an imperial nation to a faith it opressed/teachings of love expounded upon that no other has matched and finally a master who FULLY shares his kingdom with those who find him. Thats a small summary of the full faith. I have found no other faith as concise and historical as this one. It's magical and shares it's secrets with all who open it's pages. Try it ;)

That's my sales pitch :holy shit

With love :banana

[NextLevel]

:monkey

[NICKELTHROWER]

This will be my last post on this topic because, like I said earlier, I can not argue with your BELIEFS. You continue to use one single book to prove the existence of your beliefs while completely ignoring massive historical records. You claim that Jesus is the first with the “death/resurrection” beliefs but even a first semester scholar in this topic would be well versed in Zoroaster, its faith and philosophy.

I can’t begin to discuss it here but born in 628 BC, Zoroaster founded a religion that the writers of the Bible copied almost word for word. Simple fact, undisputable.

Take some time to study Zoroastrianism, study Emperor Constantine’s First Ecumenical Council and Buddha. BTW, Buddha was also of a VIRGIN BIRTH. I’m not talking about looking up some references on the internet. Go get a few dozen books on the subject and then come talk to me.

Also, Alexander the Great was said to have been created by divine conception. (His was from a lightening bolt) Osiris (Egypt) was from a Virgin Birth. Even Plato was said to be conceived by the Greek god Apollo.

Good luck and happy reading.
:king

[shabda]

funny you should say something to that extent preecha. Well FYI the dead sea scrolls are controlled by the Rockafella family!!! You can have a look at some of the manuscripts in the Rockafella museum of natural history in Jerusalem. The rest our being translated by computer programs developed by mormans at BYU . The newest of all the PRISON RELEGIONS. "Hmm well half of this manuscript is missing let the computer tell us what it said." Shit biscuit I aint going out like that!;)

[Preecha]

Where did you get that information at?

[Preecha]

Originally posted by NICKELTHROWER
This will be my last post on this topic because, like I said earlier, I can not argue with your BELIEFS. You continue to use one single book to prove the existence of your beliefs while completely ignoring massive historical records. You claim that Jesus is the first with the “death/resurrection” beliefs but even a first semester scholar in this topic would be well versed in Zoroaster, its faith and philosophy.

I can’t begin to discuss it here but born in 628 BC, Zoroaster founded a religion that the writers of the Bible copied almost word for word. Simple fact, undisputable.

Take some time to study Zoroastrianism, study Emperor Constantine’s First Ecumenical Council and Buddha. BTW, Buddha was also of a VIRGIN BIRTH. I’m not talking about looking up some references on the internet. Go get a few dozen books on the subject and then come talk to me.

Also, Alexander the Great was said to have been created by divine conception. (His was from a lightening bolt) Osiris (Egypt) was from a Virgin Birth. Even Plato was said to be conceived by the Greek god Apollo.

Good luck and happy reading.
:king

-Firstly, we are done arguing about beleifs. We are on historical evidence. None of which eludes to Jesus being an Essene. NONE! If he was influenced by them it really makes little difference anyways. Yes Jesus was the first with the virgin birth/death for his people (ie redemption for those who beleive)/ressurection on this Earth (for proof of his divinity and purpose). That is my claim. If you have a similar one link me to your knowledge even thouth I doubt it exists. Again historical facts not beleifs here.

-Secondly, I just read up alittle more on Zoroaster and have found nothing that leads me to beleive that the "Bible" was influenced by his teachings when I see information saying Christians and Jews thought him to be a heritic. But thats not even the issue. The Hebrew teachings on the 10 commandments, among other teachings in the Torah, were before his (Zor's) time. I did find that the Essenes supposedly copied some of Zor's teachings to fit their own. In my understanding the Essenes beleived in alot of "wild" ideas(formation of Angelology/continual reincarnation of Jesus...) that were different from normal Hebrew and later Christian teachings. Its not simple fact that the "Bible" was copied from Essene manuscripts because of the VAST time difference and the easily identifible differences in the texts.

-Thirdly, I dont care if Buddah was supposedly born of a virgin birth im talking the full 3 pronged system spoken of in my first paragraph. You do know that the virgin birth was prophesied by the writers of the Old Testament? Jesus didn't just make this up in 30 AD. Again historical facts talking to you here.

Blessings

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha

Yes Jesus was the first with the virgin birth/death for his people (ie redemption for those who beleive)/ressurection on this Earth (for proof of his divinity and purpose). That is my claim. If you have a similar one link me to your knowledge even thouth I doubt it exists.
Blessings

... Jesus was the Light of the World. Horus was the Light of the World. Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life. Horus said he was the truth, the life. Jesus was born in Bethlaham, the "house of bread." Horus was born in Annu, the "place of bread." Jesus was the Good Shepard. Horus was the Good Shepard. Seven fishers board a boat with Jesus. Seven people board a boat with Horus. Jesuswas the lamb. Horus was the lamb. Jesus is identified with a cross, Horus is identified with a cross. Jesus was baptized at 30. Horus was baptized at 30. Jesus was the child of a virgin, Mary. Horus was the child of a virgin, Isis. The birth of Jesus was marked by a star. The birth of Horus was marked by a star. Jesus was the child teacher in the temple. Horus was the child teacher in the temple. Jesus had 12 disciples. Horus had 12 followers. Jesus was the morning star. Horus was the morning star. Jesus was the Christ. Horus was the Krst. Jesus was tempted on a mountain by Satan. Horus was tempted on a mountain by Set.*

*Albert Churchward, Of Relegion, first published 1924 and now available from Health Research, PO Box 850, Pomeroy, WA 99347, United States.

Coincidence? I dont think so...

[Preecha]

The main problem you are encoutering in your presentation is the appropiate use of terminology that exists between the 2 stories and similar ones that also "supposedly" share commonalities with Jesus and then the outright lies(in the Jesus/Horus relation) that you copied to this post. The story of Jesus is similar in some ways to many other religious figures, that do in fact, predate him. Many of the similarites are not really there due to lingustic conversion and others out right lies.

Here is a breif comparision that you summorized and in doing so failed to use proper terminology, like the author of this work. In it is a slight Christian response that shows the obvious differences in the 2 stoires, but doesnt really do much more and is helpful only for showing the supposed similarites:

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm

Now if you want to go really indepth and divulge the truth about the religions surrounding Christianity I can lead you to my next link. It quite a read and intense. You will understand how Christianity in the Constantine era adopted some of the terms associated with the Pagan realigions, because of the GREAT influx of pagan peoples into the now united Christian Rome. Many other sub-topics are included that are needed for full understanding, many of which are in relation to Horus:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html


The following link is best in denying many of the claims of Horus, that you have posted. If you want the fast read and refutes your claims then here is where I suggest you go. This shows more information regarding the Jesus/Horus comparision and defends against many of those "lies":

http://www.tektonics.org/osy.html

[Preecha]

In the end show me the Egyptian historians findings, in relation to Horus, to contiue this discussion. Only those manuscripts will shed light on the historical "truth" of the mytholigical stories surrounding Horus.

[NextLevel]

not to be rude.. but who are YOU to determine what are lies? Are lies anything that contradicts christianity? That ssems to be the idea that I'm getting from these kinds of arguments.

[Preecha]

We are talking about? Im discussing the Horus/Jesus similarites. I want historical evidence that states the ancient Egyptians believed all of these similarites:

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm

If you can not and only suggest that they do, then they are lies. Not the historical truth.

[Preecha]

To answer your query I am a person that is defending Christianity against pagan influence. That is who I am!

[NextLevel]

no..that diddnt answer my question at all... I was asking in general... what makes you qualified to choose if something is fact or is a lie. Most of these FACTS presented on BOTH sides cant be proven.

the outright lies(in the Jesus/Horus relation) that you copied to this post.

lies by what standard? The bibles? Histories? if so...where?????

I am not saying you are not right in this case, but I seem to hear anything that trys or succeeds at disproving Christianity (or any religion) to be passed off as "lies by those who wish to corrupt the religion."

[Preecha]

Are you serious? Im talking about someone just saying 30+ exact similarites between the story of Horus and Jesus exist, when they show me no proof. You NEED Egyptian archeological proof to say "Horus had 12 disciples, just as Jesus did". If he did have these 12 then there are writings of that era supporting this. If you cannot unveil them to us then it has been fabricated and henceforth can be called a lie, until such writings can be presented. Now you can say the same about Jesus and I would point to the Gosples/medivel manuscripts and then the Dea Sea Scrolls to show the story of Jesus. But we are not denying the story of Jesus here. We are saying the story of Jesus has been BORROWED from the story of Horus in many respects. Show me where these similarites "begun" with Horus, in Egyptian carvings, cause I dont beleive it!!!

If you find it we can go on from there...

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NextLevel
not to be rude.. but who are YOU to determine what are lies? Are lies anything that contradicts christianity? That ssems to be the idea that I'm getting from these kinds of arguments.

Dood....come on now....your roomate was the one to cast the first stone with the statement:
Jesus was nothing more than one of many anti-Roman zealots. Nothing more, the rest is lies.

Who is *HE* to determine what are lies? Okay.... ? :crackhead

[Preecha]

"True" dat!

[shabda]

Originally posted by Polytrickster


In fact, the thread was started by someone "pushing" their anti-Christian beliefs on others. (By pushing, of course, I mean posting information in a forum where people have to CHOOSE to read what is posted.)

Does finding out your a hypocrite who's intolerant of others and their beliefs anger you? Aww, poor baby....if you don't like the topic, don't participate. And if YOU don't care....don't reply, because it just makes it seem like you really do.

Wow thats exactly what a christian would say!!! I started the thread as a GOOD READ!!! Preecha asked then, "what is the big secret? I merely quoted a passage from the book that I felt would some it up. You Jeremy would be the hypocrite!!! It is you who can't stand an opinion that contradicts your precious little faith! POOR BABY!!!

All I have to say is that not too long ago you would be burned at the stake for heracy dare you speak the Earth was round, and defy the almighty church. ;)

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
So you read a book that told you that? Impressive...

Keep praising the gods of light and sound.

Because I give a shout to a few real spiritual warriors I get attacked? Also note that I did not reply in any sort of negative manner. I am deemed a pagan because I refuse to accept the stories of the bible wriiten by the same Pagans you so cleverly try to associate me with? That is too much!!! Go celebrate CHRISTmas on the 25th which is truley a celebration of the birth of the SUN not the Son of man... GET IT STR8!!! And have fun on easter another Pagan celebration of the rebirth of the earth after winter, not the rebirth of christ. Pagans under the guise of monotheistic relegions how nice.

"... There are two levels of knowledge in Sun worship. In the ancient world, the hierarchy focused on the sun because they new its effect at a deep level, while the masses worshipped the sun because its heat and light and had an obvious and crucial role in ensuring an abundant harvest. In the same way, an initiate of the esoteric knowledge will read the bible differently than to a Christian or Jewish believer. The initiate will recognise the symbolism, the numerology and the esoteric codes, while the believer take the text literally. So the same texts acts as a means of passing on esoteric knowledge to the initiated and creates a prison-relegion for the masses who are not the initiated. Great Scam." David Icke "The Biggest Secret"

No offense Preecha but by what authority do you preach the "Word of God?"

[NextLevel]

Dood....come on now....your roomate was the one to cast the first stone with the statement:

I agree! He is OUT OF CONTROL! I do feel he brings up some very good points but.... man..... I dont exactly agree with the tactics. Beleive it or not, he is a good guy, but he really can come off like an a**hole!
I LOVE to debate and discuss but really cant stand it when ANYONE gets personal or insulting.

MY point was that NONE of us are in a position to judge many aspects of this discussion which is why it comes down to faith.
It is interesting to look at the "historocity" ( hehe..I learned a new word) of the bible but trying to say ones personal beleifs or conclusions are lies is not just insulting but also..well...plain stupid:D

ANYWAY... Merry Christmas/kwanza/Hannukah/Sun of Man day(?)/ or what ever the f*ck everybody celebrates:crackhead

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda


Wow thats exactly what a christian would say!!! I started the thread as a GOOD READ!!! Preecha asked then, "what is the big secret? I merely quoted a passage from the book that I felt would some it up. You Jeremy would be the hypocrite!!! It is you who can't stand an opinion that contradicts your precious little faith! POOR BABY!!!

All I have to say is that not too long ago you would be burned at the stake for heracy dare you speak the Earth was round, and defy the almighty church. ;)

You dork. You don't even know what my beliefs are. I have yet to express my personal beliefs, I've simply defended facts and tried to squelch misrepresentations.

You are simply a fanatical conspiracy theorist, filled with bitter hate and intolerance for others, specifically Christians because you are ignorant of the facts or simply uneducated. You don't even know what Christians believe. I mean sheesh, you keep refering to Catholicism and then saying Christianity. Try telling a Shiite Muslim they are the same as a Sunni.

Instead of reading legitimate sources you dig and dig to find that crackpot author with no credentials making bold, blanket claims, to justify your predetermind belief system.

I tolerate people contradicting my beliefs everyday. It doesn't bother me because my beliefs don't adhere to a system which condems people for their actions. So, until you know what my beliefs really are...don't call me a hypocrite...please? :D

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda


Because I give a shout to a few real spiritual warriors I get attacked? Also note that I did not reply in any sort of negative manner. I am deemed a pagan because I refuse to accept the stories of the bible wriiten by the same Pagans you so cleverly try to associate me with? That is too much!!! Go celebrate CHRISTmas on the 25th which is truley a celebration of the birth of the SUN not the Son of man... GET IT STR8!!! And have fun on easter another Pagan celebration of the rebirth of the earth after winter, not the rebirth of christ. Pagans under the guise of monotheistic relegions how nice.

"... There are two levels of knowledge in Sun worship. In the ancient world, the hierarchy focused on the sun because they new its effect at a deep level, while the masses worshipped the sun because its heat and light and had an obvious and crucial role in ensuring an abundant harvest. In the same way, an initiate of the esoteric knowledge will read the bible differently than to a Christian or Jewish believer. The initiate will recognise the symbolism, the numerology and the esoteric codes, while the believer take the text literally. So the same texts acts as a means of passing on esoteric knowledge to the initiated and creates a prison-relegion for the masses who are not the initiated. Great Scam." David Icke "The Biggest Secret"

No offense Preecha but by what authority do you preach the "Word of God?"

Aaahhh....the truth comes out. You are into esotericsm or gnosticism. Dood....have you even read the Kabbalah? Do you know anything about Hermetic Philosophy? Or Jewish Mysticism? Man, if your reading that book without having read the source of that guys info.....shame....

BTW.....old news buddy. Its no secret that Christmas isn't the true day of the birth of Christ. Duh....It's an OBSERVED day.

[shabda]

I have not even mentioned ever in this entire thread the word catholic or any derivitives.

[shabda]

Originally posted by Polytrickster


Aaahhh....the truth comes out. You are into esotericsm or gnosticism. .

And what if I was? Shall I be stoned to death now? Go ahead Jeremy cast another stone at someone who doesnt believe as you do. How godly!!!

Right or wrong at least for thirty minutes out of the day you exercised your mind. Maybe you started to doubt your beliefs and immediatly took offense to a contradictary belief, but I must say that was not my intent. I like the book ... Thats all.

[Polytrickster]

Hahaha....again you don't know my beleifs. You assume you know. But have NO idea. At all. Sucka...

You are right, you never have said Catholic. Which proves my point. Fact is, you talk about Catholic beliefs and refer to them as Christian. Which is the basis for calling your claims unfounded and uneducated. You read *A* book and took it as fact. I could write a book and make up a bunch of shit and sell it too. That doesn't make it fact dood.

I don't take offense to people disagreeing with my views. I take offense a people being intolerant of others. Period. Regardless of religion.

I know about alot of different ideaologies and religions. And I'll defend the facts that back each of those religions and each of those idealogies, with all my strength, against bigots with nothing better to do than misguide people with rediculously unfounded accusations.

[Preecha]

"or if you feel you cannot cope emotionally with what is really happening in this world THIS BOOK IS NOT FOR YOU!!!"

Here is where you stated you know whats REALLY HAPPENING IN THIS WORLD. So I asked what this secret truth of life is, that you are intuned with and we are not. I found this sentance to be a attack against anyone never reading the book (including myself). I also found it funny this one book is telling us whats up in the world.

Then you commented...

"The New Testement, the Church and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnis Piso (pronounced Peso) family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testement and all the characters in it- Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, John the Baptist- all are fictional. The Pisos created the story and the characters: they tied the story to a specific time and place in history: and they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc. But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is fictional!) characters." Abelard
Reuchlin, The True Authorship Of The New Testement 1979

Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!
Ancient Rome is not so ancient. Did they every really fall from power?"

See its the "Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!?, that sparked my disdane for your cause. Whether you meant it or not you have offended me and I went on the attack. If you didn't desire such a response the best option would have suited you to not come off like a know-it-all and then attack my love. Since you did, we have engauged on battelfield.

So until you can come up with some evidence for my last request concerning the Egyptian evidence on your wild claims we can go no further. Remember you did in fact start it.

[Polytrickster]

The problem is that he really doesn't have first hand knowledge of his own beliefs. He reads propaganda. Second hand, maybe even third hand, COMMENTARY and takes it as fact. He's just reading about the opinions of some random dood instead of reading the Books in which those opinions were formed on.

With a better understanding of where he gets his information I can see at this point, asking for references is wasted effort. He's not qualified to backup his claims. He's just got OPINIONS. And everyone's got those.

Next....

[shabda]

Originally posted by Polytrickster
Hahaha....again you don't know my beleifs. You assume you know. But have NO idea. At all. Sucka...

You read *A* book and took it as fact. I could write a book and make up a bunch of shit and sell it too. That doesn't make it fact dood.
And I'll defend the facts that back each of those religions and each of those idealogies, with all my strength, against bigots with nothing better to do than misguide people with rediculously unfounded accusations.

You are a fucking barrell of laughs Jeremy!!!
Last time I checked there were billions of people taking the bible as fact. Is that not a book? ... against bigots with nothing better to do than misguide people with ridiculously unfounded accusations. ??? You mean like the lies peddled for thousands of years by organized relegion to enslave the mind?

bigot

\Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as Beguine, Beghard.] 1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

Who does this really describe? Someone who read an interesting book and posted to that extent, without in engaging the matter any further untill asked, or someone who was quick to deem another a bigot when their views were in contradictions of their own.

'a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.'

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
We are talking about? Im discussing the Horus/Jesus similarites. I want historical evidence that states the ancient Egyptians believed all of these similarites:

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm

If you can not and only suggest that they do, then they are lies. Not the historical truth.

I just did a basic search on yahoo 'Egyptian mythology compared to Christianity' and how about that... I am sure there are many more but heres a link for starters

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/titania.htm

UPDATED...
http://www.anet.net/~acharya/truth/origins/origins1.htm

The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in this widespread area, such as the following crucified or executed world saviors, all of whom predate the Christian myth:

Adad of Assyria
Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules"), and Zeus of Greece
Alcides of Thebes
Attis of Phrygia
Baal of Phoenicia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha of India
Crite of Chaldea
Deva Tat of Siam
Hesus of the Druids
Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character
Indra of Tibet
Jao of Nepal
Krishna of India
Mikado of the Sintoos
Mithra of Persia
Odin of the Scandinavians
Prometheus of Caucasus
Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
Salivahana of Bermuda
Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas16)
Thor of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Wittoba of the Bilingonese
Xamolxis of Thrace
Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Zoar of the Bonzes
The Major Players
Buddha
Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C.E., the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and anteceding the period attributed to the Buddha.17

The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya.
He performed miracles and wonders.
He crushed a serpent's head.
He abolished idolatry.
He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
He was considered the "Good Shepherd."18
Horus of Egypt
The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:

Horus was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He had 12 disciples.
He was buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Good Shepherd, etc.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."19.
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story20.
In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child"21 - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced22.

Krishna
The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are many:

Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One")
He is called the Shepherd God.
He is the second person of the Trinity.
He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
He worked miracles and wonders.
In some traditions he died on a tree.
He ascended to heaven.
Mithra, Sungod of Persia
The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:

Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He was called "The Good Shepherd."
He was considered "The Way, the Truth and the Light."
He was considered "The Redeemer," "The Savior, "the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
He had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda


Who does this really describe? Someone who read an interesting book and posted to that extent, without in engaging the matter any further untill asked, or someone who was quick to deem another a bigot when their views were in contradictions of their own.



Are you actually reading my posts? How do you possibly know what contradicts my views, when you don't even know what MY views are? Please explain how you have this incredible insight. I'm very curious! You sir, are a barrell of laughs.

[Preecha]

You have still only listed "supposed" similarities man. You are showing no evidence that that list is "AUTHENTIC". Give me Egyptian archeological evidence for Horus, then we can move on to the other guys. You keep copying and pasting someone elses bogus lists of similarities. You have to try harder then that.

In relation to the flood story it is going to be HARD to prove which story was first since the flood happened before Moses time, and that is when the first writings about the ancient past were written. So it's almost pointless to try to prove which one is first, but you can try...

Comming back home from vacation now and Ill get into my books about all this. Ive only had soo much info at my moms house, to help me out ;)

Peace

[Pureform]

:snore its all the same god.

[Flagrant]

This thread really sucks..... http://www.freak-recordings.com/forum/images/smiles/gaypride.gif

[evilAntics]

Nobody cares!!



:snore

[mr.mendez]

Originally posted by Flagrant
This thread really sucks..... http://www.freak-recordings.com/forum/images/smiles/gaypride.gif


http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/contrib/legionxs/crucified.gif

And this smiley died for your sins!!

Fighting about religion or beliefs is a no win situation. Believe in yourself and what you believe shall be.

nuff said

:lighter

[Dub-U-Eff]

Yeah, well, I read in this one book that and then I found this info on this certain webpage but also this one guy told me that.........I say we should worship CD-Rom discs!!! They're small, round, have a whole in them, can be used as mirrors, hold information. Who's with me!?!?!?! Big up the CD-Rom massif!!!

[shabda]

Originally posted by Dub-U-Eff
Yeah, well, I read in this one book that and then I found this info on this certain webpage but also this one guy told me that.........I say we should worship CD-Rom discs!!! They're small, round, have a whole in them, can be used as mirrors, hold information. Who's with me!?!?!?! Big up the CD-Rom massif!!!

Yeah well I read this one book called the bible and then I went to the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter day Saints website but also this one guy, the pope, told me it was so.

So then I Just obeyed and never questioned.

Hey I want a crucified Jesus smiley too!!!

We must await the ressurection of SMILEY CHRIST!!!

[Preecha]

Still no evidence? Only baseless statements copied from many a webpage. I can link you to many more if you desire.

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
Still no evidence? Only baseless statements copied from many a webpage. I can link you to many more if you desire.

Now I must ask that if we exchange sources of info you must also provide me with evidence of your claims. Does not any evidence you can provide exist beyond the WRITTEN WORD? Is not the bible the WRITTEN WORD? FICTION OR OTHERWISE?

ANd with that THIS THREAD HAS NOW DIED FOR OUR SINS>>>
let it rest...

[Preecha]

See, you claimed that those "supposed" similarities exist between the story of Jesus and Horus. Im asking for the studies proving that the Horus story has the elements you claim. The Jesus story has its basis on the facts of the gospels/early writings of Josephus/Dead Sea Scrolls. But we are not debating whether or not the story of Jesus is correct and he has 12 disciples, but that this story has elements originating from the story of Horus and that he has 12 disciples (when the info that I found says he had 4 students under him). You have not shown and neither has the mountains of web pages that proclaim these similarites, that these are based on FACT. When determining whether or not these stoires did in fact originate from Egypt you need archeological proof. The reason they know that king Tut was infact a king was from EVIDENCE!! Not speculation. Im sure they dont have as much evidence as they did for the existance of Tut but a simple carving or 2 depecting Horus and these claims would suffice, for now. Do I need to further clarify for the 3rd time?

[shabda]

OOH sounds a little taboo...

You keep saying the bible is "based on facts" because the gospels are supposedly written by a mere character in a story.
Jamie lets face it... Where would I ever find the so called "evidence" you desire in a world where church and state are the same entity. I did to some extent anticipate a debate to some degree, which is why I posted in POLITICS, we all have the rights to our opinions. There is no BIGOT greater than those who pass that judgement on others, for they and their beliefs are but a reflection of their own. In that, you hold true to what you believe right or wrong as do I or anyone else accused of being a BIGOT. The real bigots, are those who are intolerant of others opinions especially in a political forum where it is a right to form opinions which may sometimes contradict your own. THATS LIFE!

[Preecha]

Those tings are not the point of the discussion. YOU came here claiming knowledge above and beyond us, found in a 21st century novel. I only defended Christianity after your second post. You attacked my religion and I proceeded to defend. I only ask for the claims of Horus backed by evidence. You cant just go around saying a historical similarity is sharded when you have nothing to back it up cept a few web pages of information that have been copied between them. Am i asking for too much?

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
Those tings are not the point of the discussion. YOU came here claiming knowledge above and beyond us, found in a 21st century novel.

I said I read a good book and you then replied what was the big secret . I copied a quote to give you the jist, and it was contradictory to your beliefs and I was immediatly attack as a bigot and other such anti-christian defamities. So what if I believe what it says or not. I am sorry Jamie but you aint PREECHing nothin but recycled PAGAN fables passed on to you by centuries of men in long frocks. YEAH I SAID IT!!! WHAT? It is you who claim to have some higher acknowledgment of what Jungle/DnB is and the sad truth is you are no more, enlightened than anyone else. . Baptized in jungle music you became the annointed SON OF DNB?

I AM BEYOND DONE WITH THIS THREAD ENDING TRANSMISSION>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Preecha]

I never claimed any of that and never speak of such things. You are a mislead individual and I have only asked for the facts. You are now backed into a corner and respond with personal attacks based on your judgement of my character. I have done none of that only asked for facts like any scientific mind would. If your done "preaching" misleading information then Im done responding.

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
I never claimed any of that and never speak of such things. You are a mislead individual and only have asked for the facts. You are now backed into a corner and respond with personal attacks based on your judgement of my character. I have done none of that only asked for facts like any scientific mind would. If your done "preaching" misleading information then Im done responding.

Agian as I said You asked for facts and So do I?

I "came here" as you say only speaking of a contraversial book... It is you and Jeremy who started in with the personal attacks accusing me of esoterism and gnosticism as well as being a bigot, because the book in which I had read and obviously agreed to some extent with, was contradictory to your INTOLERANT beliefs.

[Preecha]

Originally posted by shabda
Christianity my friend is nothing more than recycled PAGANISM!!!
Ancient Rome is not so ancient. Did they every really fall from power?

This was not a quote from the book but your input to cause a stir from me. So I was indeed justified in my reaction. So go back to avoiding my querys and beleive in "FAITH" what you are receiving from those unreliable internet sources and new age doctrines.

[Preecha]

FACTS ABOUT WHAT? If you claim a similarity exists BASED on info that is common knowledge (Jesus had 12 disciples based on MOUNTAINS of evidence, and no we are not talking about working miricles we are talking about 12 guys following the historical figure Jesus around. Stuff that is not refuted in the last few centuries). You need evidence cause I see only a few web pages with outlandish claims. GIVE ME A SHREAD OF ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE.

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha


This was not a quote from the book but your input to cause a stir from me. So I was indeed justified in my reaction. So go back to avoiding my querys and beleive in "FAITH" what you are receiving from those unreliable internet sources and new age doctrines.

So? There it is my opinions... Am I trying to convert anyone? Am I trying to personally attack you as a human being I believe is being mislead? Just as you think it is I who am mislead, that is your opinion and your right.

[Preecha]

This is a fine ending, so let us be done...

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
FACTS ABOUT WHAT? If you claim a similarity exists BASED on info that is common knowledge (Jesus had 12 disciples based on MOUNTAINS of evidence, and no we are not talking about working miricles we are talking about 12 guys following the historical figure Jesus around. Stuff that is not refuted in the last few centuries). You need evidence cause I see only a few web pages with outlandish claims. GIVE ME A SHREAD OF ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE.

You provide the same... Not translations of the "dead sea scrolls" deciphered by software scripted by morman scholars at BYU.

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
This is a fine ending, so let us be done...

What this is a political forum....??????????? Becuase it contradictas your beliefs its done. BUT YES I WILL AGREE DONE!!!

[Preecha]

Cause your doing nothing but going round and round. You do know it doesnt take a computer to decipher the Dea Sea Scrolls dont you? They have been traslated by many professors around the world. It's common knowledge they copy almost word for word the Hebrew bible. Another conspiracy theory that they have been mistraslated in mass eh? They have been on display at Library of Congress. Im sure those versed in the language can go check them out themselves. It would not be hard to find these discrepancies that would exist if they have been mistranslated. So one shred of evidence I again ask for lol. Keep backing away cause your only showing how little you know.

[shabda]

Originally posted by Preecha
Cause your doing nothing but going round and round. You do know it doesnt take a computer to decipher the Dea Sea Scrolls dont you? They have been traslated by many professors around the world. It's common knowledge they copy almost word for word the Hebrew bible. Another conspiracy theory that they have been mistraslated in mass eh? They have been on display at Library of Congress. Im sure those versed in the language can go check them out themselves. It would not be hard to find these discrepancies that would exist if they have been mistranslated. So one shred of evidence I again ask for lol. Keep backing away cause your only showing how little you know.

But large amopunts of the scrolls have been destroyed from decomposition, and they have developed sofrtware to desipher large pieces that are missing. I actually saw this tidbit on the Discovery channel. I aint backing away from shit. You are thickheaded in your beliefs and I am on a quest for attaining knowledge open to many things greater for spiritulism than CHRISTIANITY or any othe MYTHOLOGY. On that note I am late for "the Two Towers" PEACE OUT and keep thinking your'e right and everyone else is inferior to you and your god. What a way to be. So again Preecha go ahead I know you want to................................................

HAVE THE LAST WORD...

[Preecha]

WORD! :moon ;)

[evilAntics]

word

No ones right here, no one cares.

I dont think theres real evidence here. Its like saying you beleive in ghosts,ufos, or big foot. Theres no real evidence, so why live your life clinging to religion and a false god. Have faith in yourself, and the rest will follow. I beleive that those who are so into christianity are plain crazy! Just like people who say they saw an alien last night.

Just live and stop preaching to people, its annoying.

[evilAntics]

oh yeah one more thing


"Word"

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda


Agian as I said You asked for facts and So do I?

I "came here" as you say only speaking of a contraversial book... It is you and Jeremy who started in with the personal attacks accusing me of esoterism and gnosticism as well as being a bigot, because the book in which I had read and obviously agreed to some extent with, was contradictory to your INTOLERANT beliefs.

I love you. :love

[Flagrant]

Originally posted by mr.mendez


Fighting about religion or beliefs is a no win situation. Believe in yourself and what you believe shall be.

:up :up

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by evilAntics
word

No ones right here, no one cares.

I dont think theres real evidence here. Its like saying you beleive in ghosts,ufos, or big foot. Theres no real evidence, so why live your life clinging to religion and a false god. Have faith in yourself, and the rest will follow. I beleive that those who are so into christianity are plain crazy! Just like people who say they saw an alien last night.

Just live and stop preaching to people, its annoying.

That's just the point....there is evidence that supports HISTORY which is what most of us are talking about. You bumblefucks keep thinking that because the thread is regarding a topic related to a religion that it is the religion that is the topic. Or that because Jamie is involved in the debate that he's automatically trying to preach something. Not once has anyone said Christianity is the religion of choice or whatever. That isn't the discussion. We are talking about historical facts based on EVIDENCE! EVIDENCE! YOU MORONS! EVIDENCE!

Historical facts:

Jesus was a man.
He lived.
He taught principles of morality.
He claimed to be God.
He was crucified because of his claims.
His body disappeared 3 days later and was never found.

Whether your relgious or not, those are facts. Stop trying to push your distaste for Christianity . If you aren't interested, shut the fuck up and stay the fuck outta the thread.

[NextLevel]

He claimed to be God.

he claimed to be " the SON of God";)

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by NextLevel


he claimed to be " the SON of God";)

This is where understanding symbolism comes in handy. Besides the fact that "Son of God" refers to God incarnate (in human form) he also claimed equality with 'the Father', to be the God of the Old Testament visiting (as described in OT prophecies), as well as claimed many other qualities solely held by the Supreme Being of Judaism. To deny that Jesus claimed to be God is just as rediculous as saying he never existed in the first place. It's historical fact. ;) Doh!

Need a Biblical reference? "I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:24-38)

[Mantis Claw]

Originally posted by Polytrickster




Historical facts:

Jesus was a man.
He lived.
He taught principles of morality.
He claimed to be God.
He was crucified because of his claims.
His body disappeared 3 days later and was never found.

Whether your relgious or not, those are facts. Stop trying to push your distaste for Christianity . If you aren't interested, shut the fuck up and stay the fuck outta the thread.

So just out of curiosity, what is your proof?

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by Mantis Claw


So just out of curiosity, what is your proof?


I would first point you to one of history's greatest, most accurate treasures. The Bible. That's your first stop. That should be proof enough considering its status among secular scholars and historians alike. It discribes all of the above statements numerous times.

This is, I assume, where I have to prove the historicity of the Bible because you fucks are too lazy to do it yourselves or simply because your scared you might become a Christian. :eek

In the past one hundred years in particular archaeology and historical documents from other cultures outside of the Bible have time and again vindicated the accuracy of the Bible.

Several souces, especially second-century sources, attest to the authorship of New Testament documents. These men were in a better position to know what they were writing about than anyone living two thousand years later. So they must not be lightly dismissed. Further, there are several secular sources (e.g., Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny, Jewish writings) that give information about Jesus and the early Christians.

Findings have often been found that support the biblical texts. Even some things that used to be thought contrary to the Bible have been reversed in favor of the Bible (e.g., the existence of the Hittite empire; Luke’s account of the census and birth of Jesus). You can read about new findings every day in the newspapers!

There are three tests applied to documents to discover their historicity:

The Bibliographical Test - the test is an examination of the textual transmission by which documents reach us. In other words, not having the orginal documents, how reliable are the copies we have in regard to the number of manuscripts and the time interval between the original and the extant copies. Is what we have today the same as what was originally written.

The New Testament is the #1, yes, #1 leader in passing the Bibliographical Test. It has more ancient manuscript copies than any other document of the ancient world with some manuscripts' authorship dating within the life time of the original authors. No other historical document comes close. Its simply embarrassing to make a comparison but I will anyway. The New Testement has 20,000+ manuscripts, the manuscript second in authority to the New Testament is the Illiad by Homer with 643, and no one dares to question the author.

The Internal Test - Determines whether the written record is credible and to what extent by compairing it to itself follwing Aristotle's words: "The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, and not arrogated by the critic to himself." In other words, one must listen to the claims of the document under analysis, and not assume fraud or error unless the author dismisqualified himself by contradictions or known factual inaccuracies. The ability of the writer or witness tyo tell the truth is helpful to historians to determine credibility.

The External Test - Determines whether other historical material confirms or denies the internal testimony of the documents themselves.

Josephus (37-100 AD), Tacitus (c. 55-117 AD), Lucian (2nd century), Seutonius (c. 120 AD) and Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) mention Jesus and the apostles, along with other Bible material.

There are just soooo many more, but the point is historians and scholars don't even try to discredit the Bible's historical accuracy anymore. Everytime they do a new archeolgical discovery makes them out to be fools. The Bible is so accurate it is looked to now days as a way to test newly found documents' historicity.

All that up there is just the tip of the iceberg people. It's just rediculous to deny the HISTORICITY of the bible. We aren't talking about inspiration or revelation here. Just historical accuracy. And it is undeniable.

So anyways....can we move on to the next part of this topic? Cuz arguing over THIS part is moot. I've got it on lock down. :D

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by evilAntics
Have faith in yourself, and the rest will follow.

Ah yes....the blessed Trinity... Me, Myself and I.

[Mantis Claw]

Thanks for the info jeremy. I can't say I take your word for it, but I appreciate your responce.

[Preecha]

Good info J

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by Mantis Claw
Thanks for the info jeremy. I can't say I take your word for it, but I appreciate your responce.

I would never ask you to take my word on it. :D Do the research for yourself, unbiasly. You will find your answers there.

[Infidel]

Oooo, religious argument!!!










































I think I'll stay out of this one . . . :D

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by Infidel
Oooo, religious argument!!!

I think I'll stay out of this one . . . :D

No it's not. There is nothing religious about this discussion.

[Infidel]

:confused :rolleyes :foff :crackhead

[shabda]

You talk of symbolism Jeremy? Yes it does come in handy... Try "the SUN of the GODZ" Instead because the translation being MONOTHEISTIC is FALSE. Furthermore the "handy symbolism" you speak of is that the SON of the GODZ is not a man of this earth, but a SUN of the GODZ. Also, this is why the reoccurring themes reguarding mythology and numerology are throughout the bible. These all relate to astrology and various beliefs that predate christianity. As far as your claims that Jesus was a real man... You are simply regurgatating pagan mythology of old word for word. Yeshua may be the "christman" you're thinking of. Anywayz this thread sucks. But the book I read and originally posted to let people know "The biggest Secret" is a good read. THE END>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Please HOLD YOUR APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!!!:slayer :slayer :slayer

[jlines]

So, i just saw a PBS special on the history of the bible, if anyone here is interested. It was called 'discovering ancient history: the bible.'

it talked about the dead sea scrolls, who wrote them, and the different types of scripts and tones found within. It also talked about some of the political influences that these writers may have been dealing with at the time. interesting if your interested strictly in the factual history of ancient beliefs.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda
You talk of symbolism Jeremy? Yes it does come in handy... Try "the SUN of the GODZ" Instead because the translation being MONOTHEISTIC is FALSE. Furthermore the "handy symbolism" you speak of is that the SON of the GODZ is not a man of this earth, but a SUN of the GODZ. Also, this is why the reoccurring themes reguarding mythology and numerology are throughout the bible. These all relate to astrology and various beliefs that predate christianity. As far as your claims that Jesus was a real man... You are simply regurgatating pagan mythology of old word for word. Yeshua may be the "christman" you're thinking of. Anywayz this thread sucks. But the book I read and originally posted to let people know "The biggest Secret" is a good read. THE END>>Please HOLD YOUR APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!!!:slayer :slayer :slayer

Jesus is Greek for Yeshua, dum dum.... And what translation are you refering to? Anyone can pick up a Ancient Greek Bible (which I have) from a book store and get a Ancient Greek Dictionary (which I have) and take an Ancient Greek Language Course (which I have) and translate it themselves. It's right there, for anyone to read for themselves. You don't have to trust all those scholars and linguists and historians! You can fumble around in it yourself! You are just simply wrong.

I don't mind entertaining discussions on these other topics either. I'll school you so fuckin rotten you'll be shitting symbolism.

The only thing I *AM* trying to do is make sure the FACTS are straight. You can continue to rant and rave (teehee, I said 'rave' :D ) about religious bullshit, or you can learn the facts about these different cultures, learn how to find similarities, common ground, respect and love.

I suggest putting down the propaganda and the bullshit and picking up some real books. And take some basic history and religion classes at ASU so you at least have the fundementals down before you start spewing nonscense and disinformation. It'll also help you weed out some of the bullshit your picking up and reading.

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by jlines
So, i just saw a PBS special on the history of the bible, if anyone here is interested. It was called 'discovering ancient history: the bible.'

it talked about the dead sea scrolls, who wrote them, and the different types of scripts and tones found within. It also talked about some of the political influences that these writers may have been dealing with at the time. interesting if your interested strictly in the factual history of ancient beliefs.

I believe I've seen that show. :up

[shabda]

I love how you think you are so fuckin smart but now youre getting annoying... And change yuor fuckin sig you pretty boy!!!
What a nice mouth you have...

Like krs one says "I represent beats and knowledge, but I will contradict that!":rinse :reload

[Polytrickster]

Originally posted by shabda
I love how you think you are so fuckin smart but now youre getting annoying... And change yuor fuckin sig you pretty boy!!!
What a nice mouth you have...

Like krs one says "I represent beats and knowledge, but I will contradict that!":rinse :reload

:D

[shabda]

You all have been real good sports on this heated subject... But all that mess aside be safe and dont drive drunk!!!;) And reguardless what anyone believes relegious, political or otherwise, It is a great time to be alive.

MAXIUM RESPECT!!!:slayer :slayer :slayer :slayer :slayer :slayer :devil :slayer :slayer :slayer :slayer :slayer :slayer

[Preecha]

It is a good time to be alive :) :slayer

[Calbha]

hmmm i had a few things to say of my own but since the subject seems to have laid to rest on this heated subject i will let it lay at rest.....but if anyone is intrested in what i think you can contact me at calbha@snarf.ath.cx :D